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Photography in Orange County Parks and the rights we don’t have

September 21st, 2009 Leave a comment Go to comments

Editorial

This is the story of a guy (me) who has a Monday off and like many other times wants to spend time taking pictures and learning during his time off. Often I look for places that are not too far away but that will provide me with landscapes and subjects that are interesting. In order to find these places I use Google and Flickr to look for pictures of such places. I searched this morning for parks in the Orange County area which is about 50 miles away from my home.

Doing this I stumbled upon this Flickr picture of Ronald W. Caspers Wilderness Park. Sure looked like a nice place to spend the morning. I drove to the location and up to the park rangers station to pay my park fee. As I often do I asked the ranger where was the best place to take pictures in the park. She said, “Oh are they for professional use?” I wanted to be honest so I said , I put them up on Flickr and I might sell one someday, but I haven’t sold any yet.

She said well if you have professional equipment you will need a permit. She proceeded to give me a brochure with an 866 number for me to call about a permit. By the way the Casper park rules do not mention anything about photography. also twitter follower deverill sent me back a reply saying that “On Casper’s website they say one way to “give back” is to volunteer and1 activity is “Taking photographs”

I called the number and spoke to a “Josh” in the permit department. I explained my situation and asked what kind of camera equipment I had, and if it was professional. I said that it was. He said if it’s a point and shoot then no problem, but if you have professional gear you can obtain a day permit for $150 and you will need to have a copy of your insurance form on file with us.  Apparently that has to be $1,000,000 liability insurance . I told him that I was an amateur and would post the pictures on Flickr. He asked if they were for commercial purposes. I also wanted to be honest so I said I have not sold any pictures yet, but it would be great if I ever did. He then said I would need to go to their web site and I could get on on line form fill it out and even pay by credit card. I made a comment that I was a tax payer and I could not believe where this Country has gone that a guy can’t take good pictures of a county park. He said that he was not saying I could not take pictures, but I would need a permit.

Here is a portion of the photography permit which details pricing.

FEES: $150.00/Day $400.00/Day

$150.00/Year

$ 500.00 Deposit – Still Photography $1,000.00 Deposit – Motion/Video Photography Annual Portrait Photography


I hung up and was disappointed to say the least. I felt like being a photographer these days was like being some kind of criminal. God forbid if I actually wanted to make money shooting pictures. I tweeted about this in anger and disappointment, and I also put an audio Posterous post talking about my opinion about all of this.

So if I want to be a law abiding citizen I have to pony up $550 total and provide proof of $1,000,000 insurance liability policy so that I can take pictures ?  The answer is Yes. To say that this was a WTF moment for me would be an understatement. Now I’m not saying that the county is not within their rights.  However , I grew up in Orange County and paid the county a lot of tax dollars during my life to that county.

I was being honest, I am an amateur, but I’d love to sell a picture if the opportunity comes up. So I suppose in order to be allowed to take these pictures my best bet wold have been to lie. I should just drive up ,pay the park fee, and then take my chances that I will not get caught taking pictures with God forbid a prosumer level camera (I use a Nikon D700).  Perhaps I need to ask less questions in the future.

How are we suppose to document in pictures the places and beauty of the nature that is around us? In a time where using a camera, and possibly making money taking a photograph is deemed as a privilege that has to be paid for, I suppose were not . I can see if the site would have made it clear in the front page of the need for such a permit , and if the permit was a reasonable priced (How about $20 and no deposit, and a waiver not to sue?).

To quote another Twitter follower RBoti “I can’t go EVERYWHERE, but pictures can take me there.” Amen brother. I love photography for the time in nature, for my ability to grow and learn from the hobby, and yes for the potential of even someday making a buck or two doing it. As long as our society and government bureaucracy  make it more and more difficult for me to be within the law and honest, I suppose the only alternative I have is to lie and sneak around feeling like some criminal. Photography is not a crime and although I know that many times I an within my rights to discuss, argue and show people that am I within my rights, I dont’ go out to take pictures with a law book or desire to argue, that would defeat the whole purpose.

Sure I found an alternative site to take pictures today, but my day would have been much more serene without this reminder that apparently photography is considered illegal in certain places.

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  • tma_steve

    So are all DSLRs considered pro equipment in that part of CA? If that happened here in NJ I'd tell them where they could pucker up and kiss!

    Next time just jell them you have a little Kodak Instamatic.

  • Todd Walker

    Hmmm…OK Victor I don't want to go back on what I said on your Posterous post but you do provide a tidbit of info here that you didn't in your audio post — you told them that you might be selling your pictures. So now my question becomes, did they ask you to buy a permit simply because you were using a DSLR or because you said that you might be using the pictures for profit? My outrage in relation to your audio post was because it seemed that they were treating you the way they were because of your equipment. Now it seems that it might be because you (being honest,) told them that the resulting pics might be sold which would put you in the category of “professional.” What I saw this morning as a black and white issue has now become decidedly grey for me…

    Todd Walker

  • http://blog.jennyandpete.net/ Pete Hobley

    Hi Victor

    I feel your pain, but you were the victim of a tick-box exercise (albeit in their heads). You said the 'wrong' thing and that was that as far as they were concerned.

    I also think this is a different issue to the 'photography is not a crime' debate. You were just into the 'pro' category, but take it further – think about pros with lots of equipment, then think further to film crews making programs or films. They are all photographing one way or another. Hang on though – they are also WORKING. Suddenly they aren't a tourist out for a stroll – they are working in a public park. It then naturally follows they need liability insurance to protect innocent passers by who may trip over a lighting cable etc. Extreme I know, and not applicable to you. However, you fell in to that category. Just.

    If it makes you feel better, there are similar rules in the Royal Parks in London, and I'm sure many other parts of the world – I think it's a mixture of getting some of the action from the pros while also making sure they get protection.

    Anyway, any chance of SoCal meet up for shutterbugs? We could all go out and get harassed/arrested/permit-ed together. Could be fun!

  • http://typicalmacuser.com typicalmacuser

    That's why I wanted to post this post so that the whole story from my perspective was out. My camera was in the trunk the whole time. They did say if I was using a point and shoot it would not be an issue, but I did say that I was not a pro, but would not mind selling pictures. I think this was my big mistake and the issue. Intent to sell does not a pro make. So I take my part of the blame and that's why I wanted to blog about it while it was fresh. Twitter 140 characters does not make a good platform to do this.

  • http://typicalmacuser.com typicalmacuser

    I agree I have part of the blame here for sure. Again why I wanted to post this and just express my feelings.

  • http://typicalmacuser.com typicalmacuser

    Next time I'll just shut up :)

  • http://twitter.com/bendruckerphoto Ben Drucker Photo

    I'm not saying any of this was your fault Victor. Their permit situation was ridiculous. But you did break the rule of all professional photographers and serious amateurs, which is just break the rules, and then leave if you're asked to. I'm not saying that you should break the law. Definitely don't do that. But if they ask, you say you're an amateur, and no, you are not carrying professional equipment. You have never sold an image, and don't ever plan to.

    If a park ranger comes up to you and you have your tripod down and says that you have to put it away, do it. And then when you're far enough out of his sight, start using it again.

    In the future, just go shoot. Don't call attention to the fact that you have a lot of gear. Don't use one of their buzzwords. The second you say you're a professional, they can't get over that fact. You'll never convince them to let you shoot once you say that.

  • Todd Walker

    “If a park ranger comes up to you and you have your tripod down and says that you have to put it away, do it. And then when you're far enough out of his sight, start using it again.”

    Ben,

    This is not the kind of actions or attitude that we as photographers want to portray if we want to effect any kind of change in these types of regulations. Just my $.02 of course…

    Todd

  • http://typicalmacuser.com typicalmacuser

    This is a really good discussion. My problem is that believe it or not I tend not to ever lie cause I suck at it and it's just wrong. However I agree that in this case I also would not be lying cause I am no a pro, as I've never sold a photo.

  • http://blog.jennyandpete.net/ Pete Hobley

    It's not so much lying; more like “being economical with the truth”.

    Mr Park Ranger: “Do you intend selling your photos?”
    Victor: “No, I do not intend selling my photos” [True]
    … time passes …
    Magazine editor: “Wow, we'll pay your $1500 bucks for one of your Flickr shots!”
    Victor: “Great! I never expected that! Let's have a party.”
    Victor reflecting later: “Well, sorry Mr Park Ranger. As they say: s*** happens.”

  • http://typicalmacuser.com typicalmacuser

    Well I like the way you think :)

  • http://twitter.com/bendruckerphoto Ben Drucker Photo

    If you'd like to wait and hope for people to start being accommodating to photographers, I respect that. I also respect that some people are far more honest than I am.

    None of these parks have any desire to change their rules, and nor do I have the desire to give up a great shot in an effort to conform to their rules.

    With regard to the tripod, don't be disrespectful to the ranger. Don't put it back in front of his face, or in a spot he'll likely return. But like I said, if you start using it and then he comes back, just say that you weren't totally clear on the rule he'd told you and that you're really sorry.

    I'd rather say I'm sorry for doing something than be to afraid to do and miss the shot as a result.

  • create4d

    Hi

    What you just have written about i have encounter so many times. I live in Sweden were we have a law that allows you to go everywhere in nature. But when I had a photo shoot where i needed some nice looking trees and gras in front where i was going to have a model holding a dog I went to the biggest park around and found a great place and when I later called them they wanted a amount around 500dollars but to get the permit we were not allowed to go on the grass. And I said What we need to be on the grass thats the whole point. No you will destroy it. Then I put in the comment that this park have tons of people waking there dogs and having picnics and so on that they destroy the grass more then ever we could do. NO was the answer.
    Ok at this pint i was really angry and went out and found a new location to shoot at. Became at a cemetery no problems getting the permits. A few days later I got a faktura from the other park for the photo shoot. I called up this lady again and asked here what she was doing. She claimed that we did the photo shoot there and if the images was used they would reminisced the set and then they would send us a lawsuit. The funny thing is that we did not even get the permit at first.

    So thats my little story. So I know how frustrated you must have been. I could just have gone there and do the shoot but just I tried to do it properly i got burned.

  • http://www.imagingbuffet.com/ Andrew Darlow

    Sorry to hear that you experienced these headaches Victor. I wonder if the park ranger (and those who wrote those rules) knows that people like Ansel Adams helped to preserve and make possible so many National Parks! There's an outstanding book out now about the National Parks co-authored by Ken Burns that describes the importance of photography in this regard.

    I've been escorted out of the Santa Monica Pier in CA for taking pictures on the pier with a camera that also looked “professional” (I truly had no idea that they had any restrictions-I don't think there were any signs). Of course I have not marketed any as stock photos, but I've seen the Pier in other stock photos online.

    Commercial use is so tricky to determine when photos or video are posted online. I can understand why a park would not want a crew of 5 or 100 people making movies without prior permission, but an independent tax paying American? I've seen many people with 4×5 view cameras at Grand Canyon National Park, and I doubt they paid a permit fee, so it must be dependent on the location.

    One way to get rules like that changed or amended to be more fair is to start from the ground up with a petition and then contact your local representatives and write articles in the local paper. There many be a procedure that others can follow as well. Nothing's easy!

  • http://onemansblog.com/ John Pozadzides

    I think there may be one other thing to consider here. While you have a nice camera, I think it would be perfectly fair to say it is not a “professional” camera. Why? Because I'm certain that far more hobbyists own that model than professionals. And professionals even own small pocket cameras, but that doesn't make them professional gear.

    Now if you were bringing in a $50k medium format camera that ONLY pros own and use, then I could understand it, and would admit to bringing in pro gear.

    Also, let's look at the intent of your visit. You said you were out to take photos for your own learning, practice, and enjoyment. You didn't show up “on the job”. So, while you were trying to be honest, I think you screwed yourself. In a case like this where the liklihood of selling one of your photos is distant, and your gear is common, you clearly were not there as a “pro”.

    If I were you, I'd go back and get the photos that attracted you to the place originally! Oh, and if it makes you feel better, at least they didn't throw you out and ban you like the Excalibur did to me! :-)

  • http://onemansblog.com/ John Pozadzides

    Oops! That link should have been:
    http://onemansblog.com/2009/09/30/the-photos-th…

  • Jeffrey Fields

    At Local, State & National elections, do you support candidates that propose more government or less government?

  • ryry14

    Are you freaking kidding me? You seriously cannot fork over a measly 150 bucks (cost of annual photo permit) to pay for a year’s work of photography. The 150 dollars is for a year’s work of potential clients; hence, you’ll be breaking even with those $150.00 bucks and even profiting. GEEZ, YOU TAXPAYER! Since you’re an amateur at everything (lol!) try taking business course so they can help you understand the cost margin to starting your own amateur business, breaking event with your investments, and reaching your goal of profit.
    *Note- Really? You’re a taxpayer? So you want the world at your fingertips! BECAUSE YOU PAY TAXES (LOL)….Judging by your lack of $150.00 dollars (cost of permit fee)…I suspect your tax return for the year 2008 was around $30,000.00, so that just around $2,500.00 of ACTUAL TAX MONEY YOU PAID TO STATE & FEDERAL GOV. YOU ARE LESS PAYING LESS THAN 3% IN TAXES & YOU DEMAND THE WORLD ACT YOUR FINGERTIPS….THIS IS JUST LAUGHABLE!!!!
    In the end, please once again get the knowledge of BUSINESS FINANCE then you would be able to understand the cost of starting your business, expense of operating it and the revenue you are looking to receive.

  • Mike

    Just found your blog and had to post. (Good blog so far and have the podcasts cued on my player.)

    The problem is one of communication. The legal definition of “commercial use” is not what most people think. “Professional equipment” is exactly what? Selling a print is not commercial use, using the image to endorse camper gear is. Pros use Holgas as well as an SLR.

    If your camera has an Auto setting and a pop-up flash then it can't be pro equipment can it? I have never seen (or heard) of a professional shooter using Auto and a pop-up flash for commercial work. If I use the same clubs as Tiger Woods am I a professional golfer?

    Bit late to help you out but it is something to keep in mind. It is also easier to apologize than it is to ask permission.